Is compressor surge bad In other words, compressor surge and the sound it makes, are the blades of the Jul 16, 2020 · The effect of this boost backtracking into the compressor outlet and interfering with the compressor wheel is called compressor surge. May 12, 2004 · Compressor surge accurs when you let off throttle and BOV doens't open or doesn't open enough in time. The quick answer to this question is May 25, 2011 · Anti-surge systems are designed and supplied through third-party suppliers (suppliers specialized in anti-surge systems) based on the compressor manufacturer’s machinery performance maps. Apr 3, 2025 · Surge is a characteristic behaviour of a centrifugal compressor that can occur when inlet flow reduced such that the head developed by the compressor is insufficient to overcome the pressure at the discharge of the compressor. "The repeated, high speed cycling will cause a cyclic torque on the compressor and may lead to increased stresses on the bearings and compressor impeller. It cna range from sounding like a turkey call to air surges that flutter. Compressor Characteristic Curve [3] Surge is a cyclic phenomenon i. . Sep 18, 2024 · Turbo compressor surge is an aerodynamic phenomenon that happens when the rotation of the compressor wheel is too fast versus the speed of the air passing through the compressor. These systems may May 15, 2019 · Centrifugal and axial compressors can experience a potentially destructive condition known as surge. It is a detrimental phenomenon as it will make the compressor to vibrate. Apr 14, 2025 · Compressor surge: If the valve reduces the flow too much, it can cause reverse flow and oscillations in the compressor, causing it to surge. , surge repeats unless a control action is taken to bring compressor out of surge. 3. This can cause immense damage to a compressor and/or turbine and is why they require surge protection valves. Anonymous. Feb 4, 2025 · Turbocharger surge is an unstable aerodynamic condition in a turbocharger compressor when there is a disruption in the balance of airflow through the turbocharger. The wastegate would probably only be active while maintaining a certain level of desired boost while on the throttle. Surge Control Systems. The geometry of the piping system upstream and downstream of the compressor also determines the frequency of flow. Updated: 10/22/2022. Any input? The bad scenario is open throttle compressor surge. If you don't have a bov, the puff puff sound IS compressor surge. GFB Discussion Paper The Truth About Compressor Surge. , flow reversals can occur in less than 150. This is due to two reasons: First, surge is a system phenomenon, that only exists due to the interaction of a system of pipes, valves and volumes (in short “the piping system”), and a compressor. I believe this is compressor surge? I didn't have this issue prior to I/C, is this a function of a bad blow off valve? if so how can i At low boost (low turbine/compressor speed, probably around 1/4 to 1/3 the normal boost) it isn't going to cause any problems at all, but if you're getting surge at higher boost, that isn't good. Most factory-standard turbocharged engines shouldn’t suffer from the dreaded compressor surge, or turbo flutter. It MUST happen when you don't have a BOV or when it's not set Jan 31, 2011 · Dark Mode; Light Mode; Menu Log in Dec 23, 2020 · Surge in Compressor : Compressor surge is the process of formation of the reversible flow of gas through the compressor (axial or centrifugal type). But Im not sure if it is really all that bad. This imbalance causes a rapid reversal of airflow in the turbo compressor, leading to unstable operations like oscillations and distinctive fluttering noise. By design, anti-surge Now who can tell me if thats bad for the turbo or ok? I have been hearing mixed opinions on compressor surge in a diesel and i want to know if i should be doing something to eliminate it or if it is ok to continue driving around like that. 2 in which the flow reversal and recovery is shown. This is why OEMs use recirculation valves. But no compressor should be intentionally operated in surge for an extended period of time since this will likely cause harm to the compressor. Open-throttle implies there are two opposing forces acting on the turbine (exhaust trying to spool, air failing to compress), which is horrible; closed-throttle implies there's a single force acting on the turbine (air failing to compress Centrifugal compressor surge is a critical phenomenon that can significantly impact the performance and safety of compression systems. This traps air, which then exits back out through the turbocharger causing the compressor to spin. Apr 10, 2020 · Moreover, knowing the impacts of surge on a compressor can help to manage the unit better each time instability occurs. You cannot operate on the left side of the I couldn’t find any youtube videos of damaged turbos specifically from off throttle surge. e. The essential fact is that the same compressor can develop mild surge or violent surge, depending on the geometry (especially the volume) of the piping system upstream and downstream of the compressor. The Sep 23, 2024 · We are to the left of the surge line on the compressor map, we are trying to make too much boost with too low an airflow volume through the compressor. To understand Jan 3, 2004 · Compressor surge is when you're under boost and then you let off the throttle and the pressure isn't released and goes backwards to the turbo. To prevent a compressor entering surge, generally a bypass is opened to maintain the flow above surge flow. Oct 2, 2017 · Both are technically compressor surge, and both sound essentially the same, however the different conditions under which they occur are important to identify. Here at Jaguar Air Apr 29, 2015 · Surge. Compressor surge occurs when the mass flow rate through the compressor drops below a critical value, thus, leading to a reversal of flow within the compressor. In this case, there is instability which causes the intermittent reversal of gas flow throughout the Compressor surge is often thought to be the sound made by a specific type of “sequential” BOV. When we set out to make the best-performing intake elbow for the 2017-2025 Duramax 6. + 4 Photos + 4 Photos Jun 10, 2015 · The topic is "What is the difference between turbo flutter and compressor surge?" and which one is bad and which one is "acceptable". Bad for impeller, bearings, efficiency, etc. Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club: Thursday August 17, 2023 Jul 26, 2021 · IMO, the thing is, when closing the throttle @ 12psi boost, the already generated air flow which has velocity will hit the closed butterflies and can bend them, but because the air speed drops due to the restriction its pressure spikes upwards and is reflected back to the compressor blades possibly bending them. Nov 7, 2006 · the turbo that came on the motor lasted about a year and the oil seals started to leak because the bearings were getting so bad, and the used one I got lasted about nine months and did the same thing, so I took the first turbo bead blasted and balanced the wheels and rebuilt the center section, the car is a lot faster with the fresh turbo, Im just lucky I didnt grenade either turbo, the one Figure 1. [7] A chain reaction of compressor surge is the flameout of a jet engine. usually caused by operating the turbo out of it's efficiency range. Is Turbo Flutter Bad? Compressor surge occurs when a turbocharger is operating at peak boost and then the gas is let off, closing the throttle body. Similarly, the surge frequency depends on the piping system. There may be cases when the surge line is briefly crossed, either accidentally or unavoidably during a fast shutdown. Below is basically a summary of what I gathered so far: Both turbo flutter and compressor surge occur when the air pressure after the turbo is higher than what the turbo can maintain. Over time, filters can become clogged with dust and debris, obstructing the flow of air and causing the compressor to surge. In actual fact, no BOV makes the compressor surge fluttering sound, the noise actually comes from the turbo. If you can hear the flutter while your throttle plate is open, bad news. com/collec Mar 7, 2025 · Compressor surge/turbo flutter happens when we are asking the turbo to operate in an area to the left of the surge line on the turbo’s compressor map. com Oct 4, 2018 · Let’s get something out of the way right at the start. As Alexander Mutter, Senior Manager application at Accelleron, explains: “The major point is that it highlights a so-called surge line on the left-hand side, and the operating point of the compressor must be right of this line. In our latest short, Gale explains what compressor surge is and why it’s bad for the life of your turbo. Wastegate flutter accurs during boost gain (mainly when peak boost is reached) under throttle and is a quick sound (similar to a pressure cooker in some cases). Axi-symmetric stall, more commonly known as compressor surge; or pressure surge, is a complete breakdown in compression resulting in a reversal of flow and the violent expulsion of previously compressed air out through the engine intake, due to the compressor's inability to continue working against the already-compressed air behind it. The cause of full throttle compressor surge is more difficult to explain and it might be said that we still do not know 100% why it happens. This article delves into what centrifugal compressor surge is, its causes and effects, a typical surge curve, and surge control. 6L, we had to first perfect GM’s anti-surge geometry. I did however find this video, which leads me to believe that its harmless. These are close enough. Jul 29, 2021 · An anti-surge valve for such a compressor should be able to reduce the pressure across the turbo-compressor by about half during the same period. One common cause is inadequate refrigerant levels. Compressor surge happens when the pressure is too high and the flow is not enough so it pushes the air out the compressor. May 7, 2007 · If you are losing boost pressure and you hear your valve whistling under throttle, it is asjusted too loose. Compressor surge = bad mmmkay - the stock unit recirculates for a good reason, ditch the bov IMO. Conclusions In systems that handle gases, such as centrifugal compressors used in refineries and petrochemical plants, it is essential to differentiate between phenomena such as cavitation and surge, since Aug 8, 2009 · on top of that, there are multiple types of surge compressor surge under boost. Oct 13, 2024 · An undersized compressor is more susceptible to surging, while an oversized unit can lead to inefficiencies. The worst cases of turbo surge are common on over-turbo’d vehicles (i. This is an excerpt from a tutorial, “What is surge”, by Jeffrey Moore of Southwest Welcome to this week’s Turbosmart video drop on all things boost. If such conditions remain, it may reduce performance and potentially cause May 5, 2022 · Is A Compressor Surge Bad? Is a compressor surge bad? Possibly the most common question that new air compressor owners have is whether or not a surge is a good or bad thing. Jan 7, 2009 · A few things, compressor surge can occur under any engine conditions, open throttle or not. Understanding surge, its causes, effects, and prevention methods is crucial for maintaining safe and efficient compressor operation. In this scenario, the turbo continues to send pressurised air into the engine that the engine simply does not have capacity for and so is sent back toward the turbo. It is dangerous, damaging and inefficient. A compressor can experience a violent or mild surge. Now why is it bad? As the boost returns to the compressor Compressor surge was explored in depth in our discussion paper “The Truth About Compressor Surge”, and it is worth taking the time to read this article as background. If violent enough, surging can literally explode a compressor wheel (see below). A complete surge cycle is shown in Fig. Is a compressor surge bad? Possibly the most common question that new air compressor owners have is whether or not a surge is a good or bad thing. Also keep in mind I am NOT talking about ON throttle compressor surge, which is different and very obviously bad for the turbo. , applications where a turbocharger has been improperly spec’d). Check out our range of forced induction gear here: https://uk. This certain “sequential” BOV however is often responsible for causing compressor surge, which is how this misconception propagates. I was taught, Lift = Discharge pressure - Suction pressure Most of the time condenser and evaporator pressure is what we have available. carthrottle. A lot of aftermarket bpv do both vent to atmosphere and vent to intake and there is no third connection. This phenomenon typically arises during conditions of low demand or when the operating point of the compressor moves too close to a critical boundary, which is the surge line on a Oct 27, 2023 · Installing anti-surge compressor housing; Upgrading to an anti-surge compressor housing will improve the airflow and reduce the risk of surging by a significant measure. " TL:DR Choo choo, Flutter = Surge Surge = increased stress and fatigue on the compressor, which may or may not lead to compressor failure. The vertical axis is labelled “pressure ratio”, but for this explanation it may be more convenient to think May 22, 2024 · Turbo flutter is another name for compressor surge. The points where this starts to happen makes up the “surge line” on compressor maps. During stalled operation, the average air flow through the compressor is steady, but during surge, the flow rate will rapidly (milliseconds, msec) pulse—sometimes so violently If we push the lift too far the compressor will surge. As shown in the cut-away above, half A quick guide on understanding different turbo sounds and what they mean. If a turbo dies “from flutter” it was about to die regardless. The worst-case scenario for an anti-surge system is an emergency shutdown of the gas turbine while the turbocompressor is operating at high pressure and close to surge. Surge is a condition that occurs in compressors when the amount of gas they are trying to compress is insufficient for the size of the compressor and the blades lose their ability to transfer energy from the shaft to the fluid, causing a Sep 28, 2019 · No compressor should be operated in surge. ∙ 17y ago. Figure 1 is a typical turbo compressor map. Apr 6, 2019 · One of the key problems in the discussion of surge control is the definition of what is being controlled. compressor surge when you let off the gas; your BOV/BPV can't vent the pressurized intake air fast enough, making it rush back through the compressor instead. When the refrigerant level is too low, the compressor can struggle to maintain the required pressure, resulting in surging. It is a high speed phenomenon i. Edit:Although, no compressor surge would be ideal. This robs power and turns your truck into a bucking bronco. Is Turbo Flutter Bad? Will it damage a turbo? Not immediately. Another common cause is dirty filters. It is a phenomena accompanied by centrifugal compressors having continuous flow rate, gas path inside compressor flows having an acceptable value of eddies and vortices but if these eddies and vortices exceeded the acceptable design limit that case will be called rotating stall and flow separation will take place decreasing static pressure causing reversal gas flow leading to high Nov 15, 2024 · Is turbo flutter/turbo surge/compressor surge bad for the engine? Is it bad for the turbo? If you want background information, this turbo flutter video has some examples of what it sounds like & this article details what is h appening. Its a fluttering sound after you let off the throttle. Apr 6, 2019 · This is also an instability, but without the full reversal of flow. Once surge occurs, the output pressure of the compressor drastically reduced, resulting in flow reversal within the Aug 21, 2024 · Compressor surge is a significant phenomenon that can impact the efficiency, safety, and longevity of compressor systems. Apr 10, 2020 · Types of Compressor Surge. I am only referring to OFF throttle surge. NOw , everybody warns against the surge. Due to a lack of air See full list on whatispiping. How do you know it is surging? The most common cause for a jump in idle speed while the AC is running is when the cooling fan In the words of compressor expert Ivor Day, stall is a disturbance of compressor flow in the tangential direction, while surge is a disturbance in the axial direction. Violent Surge: Jan 3, 2004 · Compressor surge is when you're under boost and then you let off the throttle and the pressure isn't released and goes backwards to the turbo. Emerson’s Mikhail Ilchenko describes it for me. Proper sizing ensures that the compressor operates within its optimal range. Centrifugal compressor surge is seen as a very dangerous and detrimental phenomenon in compressed air systems, dangerous because it causes the compressor to vibrate and detrimental because it causes damage to the compressor parts. Jan 9, 2017 · Blow-off valves are commonly used in high-surge applications. Oct 6, 2022 · A compressor map effectively shows the operating area of a compressor. Join us in this video as we uncover the mysterious threat that stealthily navigates the wor Oct 22, 2022 · Is compressor surge bad. Besides maybe May 11, 2017 · However, it is a common industry belief that a ½ hour of accumulated surge is detrimental enough for the compressor to become damaged beyond acceptable level. compressor-surge-1. Operation of the compressor to the left of the SLL must be avoided and a surge event that evolved into surge cycling must be stopped immediately. What is Compressor Surge? Compressor surge can be linked to the interaction between the piping system and the compressor. However, in that article the phenomenon of compressor surge occurring during acceleration with an open throttle was only briefly mentioned as at the time it was not Oct 12, 2010 · Is compressor surge bad? Newbies & FAQs. Implementing surge control systems can provide real-time monitoring and automatic adjustments to prevent surging. To the turbo, compressor surge is a condition that occurs whenever turbo boost pressure is high and airflow is low. May 5, 2022 · Is A Compressor Surge Bad? Is a compressor surge bad? Possibly the most common question that new air compressor owners have is whether or not a It’s a made up problem and often confused with on throttle compressor surge which is definitely a bad thing. First of all, if you're hearing compressor surge, it's almost certainly closed-throttle compressor surge, which is not nearly as bad as open-throttle. Mar 30, 2013 · Hey all, i have this annoying flutter when i shift gears, or even when cruising at anything above 2400 rpms/between shifts/and winding down from high rpms. This action should be taken before surge is reached. It MUST happen when you don't have a BOV or when it's not set Dec 23, 2020 · Surge in Compressor : Compressor surge is the process of formation of the reversible flow of gas through the compressor (axial or centrifugal type). The type of surge that is evident in the compressor depends on the piping system. By understanding the principles behind surge, recognizing its effects, and implementing effective management strategies, you can mitigate its impact and ensure smooth and reliable compressor operation. Causes Lift-off surge is caused by the BOV /dump valve/recirculating valve not opening or not opening enough and/or not opening fast enough and/or being too small for the amount of air flowing A compressor surge occurs when the discharge pressure is higher than the pressure the compressor can put out, literally causing a backwards flow/possible seizing of a compressor. and, yeah, they are both pretty bad J. Aug 2, 2002 · Alright before anyone slams me, this is advanced tech. Actually, severe damage of compressor surge is often related to very large transverse loads on blades and casing in its initial transient. Compressor surge only occurs in dynamic compressors (Axial and Centrifugal) due to their nature. Here at Jaguar Air Compressors, we endeavour to help you make the most of your machine, and this article will discuss how harmful a compressor surge really is. While fully developed compressor surge is axisymmetric, its initial phase is not necessarily axisymmetric. Without a doubt, Surge might create a dead-end for natural gas compression. rslrl aebal tbyy gcbkny bndrpa idpds tabpmt yjjmg dojr wscac